I think Harry was a lot higher than I was when we both saw them at the Garden (Madison Square GARDEN, Harry, not Gardens) and the Coliseum. Comparing Thin Lizzy and Queen? What a joke.
There’s a reason Lizzy was the opening act and not vice versa. Doherty was clearly biased toward Lizzy. Could it be the Irish connection? Or maybe whichever band gives you the most access gets the most compliments? At least 8 articles about them in 3 years, for Melody Maker alone? Who paid for the plane tickets? The room at the Plaza? The limousine? I’m just asking.
For the life of me, I never understood what people thought was so great about Thin Lizzy. Some good riffs and volume cranked up to 11 do not a spectacular band make. Frankly, I was bored. (There are lots of Lizzy soundalike bands.) There was no moment when Thin Lizzy came close to blowing away Queen, let alone matching them.
Loyalty to Thin Lizzy (or any band, for that matter) doesn’t trump reality. I’ve seen a Stones show that sucked, Van Morrison acting like a jerk, and Springsteen shows where he forgot the lyrics and went round in circles until the audience had to prompt him. I’ve seen Brian May start in the wrong key, laugh and correct himself out loud, then start over. That’s how it’s done when you’re the best. Wonder what the Lizzy boys did when they dropped a clanger? Probably nobody could tell anyway.
Who cares about magnesium flashpots? I saw plenty of Queen shows, and barely noticed them.
Let’s talk about musicianship.
Singing: Um, gee, a guy who could whisper and roar, with about a 4-octave range, choirboy top notes and full force attack right in the place where most singers have a “break” in their voices? There was only one of them, and he wasn’t Phil Lynott.
Lead guitar: What could Scott Gorham, Gary Moore, or for that matter Brian Robertson play that Brian May can’t? Vice versa: could they play what Brian invented and sound like Brian? Don’t be silly. Did they build their own guitars? Not. Can you instantly identify the sound of any of the Lizzy guitarists if you don’t know the song? Nope. Can you instantly identify Brian May’s sound, out of context? Yep.
Drummers: Even if they both played equally well, which band had one who could sing a high E and sustain it? Lizzy? Wrong again.
Bass players: it doesn’t even matter at this point.
Showmanship? Originality? Show me one Lynott move that compared with Mercury’s strut and drama. Sure, the ballet tights (which I forgot about long ago) and hot pants were awful, but that was one for the lads, dearie. The man could control a stadium full of drunks with one “Shush, darlings!”
Creativity: Thin Lizzy’s big departure from their rock songs was a blues number. Queen had six different flights on every album. You could love or hate where they were going, but you never yawned.
Songwriting: Did Thin Lizzy ever need a lyric sheet for their oh-so-complex writing? On the other hand, how long did it take you to learn all the words to “Bohemian Rhapsody”? And didn’t you have to look up “Bismillah”? If you’re not a fan of complexity, how’s “Tie Your Mother Down” and “Stone Cold Crazy” for hard rock?
Longevity: How many people do you know who still listen to Thin Lizzy (besides Harry, that is)? How many Thin Lizzy songs do you hear on the air, anywhere? Now count how many people still listen to Queen, and are even willing to show up for the Faux Queen tours with that ridiculous what’s-his-name trying to fill Freddie’s tights? How many times a week do you hear Queen on the radio? Granted, they play the same 4 or 5 tunes to death, but radio jocks aren’t noted for their originality–nor are radio’s restrictive formats conducive to kicking out the jams.
Now, to be royally sexist for a moment (it’s my prerogative; I put up with it for more than a decade in the music business, and the situation hasn’t evolved much since then), let’s rate the band on looks.
Queen: 3 (sorry John; not a looker)
Thin Lizzy: 1 (Scott had gorgeous hair)
I said this in my review of Queen’s first album: “Queen sounds like nobody else, and nobody sounds like Queen…All that glitters certainly isn’t gold, but Queen is a 24-karat lode.” Yeah, people laughed at that. And now may I just say, HA! right back.
22 Responses to Reality Check: Queen and Thin Lizzy tour the USA. What on earth was Melody Maker thinking with “The Year Queen Lizzy Shook America”? (Harry Doherty, 1977)
I dunno — I retain a soft spot for Thin Lizzy as their US label, Warner Bros., flew me to London (my first visit there) in June 1978, to report on the band for Creem. As you note, those promo goodies could do their work. In my case, though, I really liked Phil Lynott when I talked to him. He was another “black hippie” in that Arthur Lee/Jimi Hendrix great-chain-of-being I’ve always found so compelling, and he amused me by calling his former label Decca “a poxy record company.” When he saw me write that phrase down in my notebook, he told me not to put it in my story, and both of us being gentlemen, I didn’t — not until 22 years later, in my “Loose Palace” fanzine, long after Phil had left us. That said, I haven’t spent much time actively listening to Thin Lizzy over the years, though I never mind when their songs (usually “The Boys Are Back in Town”) turn up on the radio.
Queen I’ve found much more problematic. Archivists will note that I actually gave their “Sheer Heart Attack” album a positive review in the April 1975 issue of Creem. At the time, I thought of Queen as another glam-trooper band like Mott The Hoople, precious but salvageably hard-rocking at the same time. But Queen lost me for good with their “Bohemian Rhapsody” tour de force a year or so later. Sure it’s full of creativity and musical talent, but to what end? Gilbert-and-Sullivan-on-steroids is not my idea of rock’n'roll. Queen’s subsequent line of patented football cheers –”We Will Rock You,” “Another One Bites the Dust,” etc. — stomped my German-ancestried ears like a Nazi rally, not an endearing prospect. R.I.P. Freddie Mercury, a hugely talented soul, and yet, to me, someone whose artistic vision seemed to have a creepy neoconservative core. It’s struck me that somewhat like neocon politicians Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher, who got elected to high government office precisely so they could begin dismantling that same government, Freddie Mercury became a rock star in part to “liberate” rock’n'roll from its R&B and C&W origins and make it into a mutant rockish operatic bombast more to his high-toned liking. Which, if that’s your thing . . . but count me out, I’ll stick with the melodic Thin Lizzy lads in this grudge match.
Those were the days, Kris. Great memories, particularly of that trip. As a music journalist, I wasn’t toiling under the illusion that every article I wrote was a thesis about the state of rock music. I was more a fan writing for fans, a bit of a hack really! Did I love Thin Lizzy? Yes. Did I love Queen? Yes. That tour was a dream for me, and yes, it was all laid on, by both Queen and TL as I recall. That was the norm at the time – record companies flying journos all over the world and picking up the tab. What a life! Doesn’t happen so much now of course as the lunatics are running the asylum…
I’d have to agree in retrospect that Queen vs Thin Lizzy was a bit of headline grabbing on the part of the subs, but that was the mood. Lizzy were very much the support band, but part of a unique bill. It’s a bit glib to be so dismissive of Thin Lizzy’s music and personality. Who could have equalled Queen? But the two bands were musically complementary to each other on that tour, which I’m sure was Queen’s intention when they invited Lizzy to join them. Although Lizzy never cracked America, they are renowned for the way they successfully managed to weave hard rock with pop sensibility and have been widely appreciated ever since for that.
And, gee, did them being Irish (well two of the four) help? Now, let me think about that…
Love the “Gilbert and Sullivan on steroids” line!
I always thought those football chants were a strange genre, but Freddie obviously wanted to stick his fingers in every pie. He had enough imagination for several people; you never knew in what direction he’d take the band next. Guess my Italian ears didn’t hear any ominous Aryan politics. In fact, I didn’t hear any politics at all from Queen, just veiled references to homosexual life–though Freddie never declared himself a member of the team.
Re the record labels shlepping journalists all over: I must’ve been quite the purist in those days; I drove my own car and didn’t even ask the magazines for gas money. I think my freebies were mostly albums, T-shirts, tickets, food, and bevvies. And when I crossed the Pond, it was on my dime, so I was never beholden to anyone–which explains why I could crucify certain “artists” with no repercussions.
Still not impressed by Lizzy, though; they’re just okay rock ad roll. Nothing (for me) to write home about.
Having spent an English public holiday weekend rediscovering the musical pleasures of my 70′s youth, I am enjoying this riff. How is this being scored – the looks thing at least seems based on some sort of rationale, albeit a subjective one. Remembering my teens, what set Lizzy apart wasn’t great lyrics but some good tunes (viz The Cowboy Song)and what at the time was the innovative – to my ears- twin guitar attack of Gorham and Robertson; it was melodic but raw and certainly not over-produced.
Are Lizzy my preference? Yes back in the day but now – well I’m older so can admire the non-rock’n'roll aspect that was Queen more. Interestingly, I recall Record Mirror (I think) c.1974 comparing 10cc, Queen and The Sweet: Andy Scott of the latter reckoned that BoRhap was what we would now call a bit of a mash-up – 1 part Queen themselves to 2 of 10cc and The Sweet. Hmmm… well it was the latter that I have been rediscovering this weekend and although a nostalgic pull is still there, when listening to the post-Fox On The Run material I realise now that it was a classic young love that could never last; I still listen to Queen. And a bit of Lizzy. And a dash of 10cc. Score-draw anyone?
Check your draft Cockerton! It couldn’t have been 1974… had to be late ’75 or early ’76. Still, at least that allows Jailbreak (where’s that Phil? Try near the jail…) to be dragged in for the sake of contemporaneous comparison!
Well, one of my criteria for the Queen/Lizzy trial is longevity, and we all know who won that.
Kind of hard for me to put 10cc and The Sweet in the same league. I think of them as pop. Almost MOR.
Retrospective is a good thing. It made me appreciate Jim Morrison less (I know; hard to believe). And nowadays–well, dare I mention one band that’s getting its due WAY after the fact–the band that so many critics loved to hate–a band I loved from the get-go:
Pink Floyd.
Okay, I’m ducking now.
Well, I liked Pink Floyd UNTIL Syd was booted out . . . but I digress, I wanted to report that I got my comeuppance re this thread while doing our grocery shopping this morning. For a long time our Kroger supermarket’s ambient music was hits from the ’60s, which disturbed me, as I didn’t like mixing my very favorite records (e.g., Mary Wells’s “My Guy”) with the vulgar travails of consumption (e.g., deciding between “Immediate” or “Long-lasting” odor- control varieties of cat litter.)
Sometime back Kroger dropped the ’60s hits in favor of boy bands and other American Idol types who think singing the same note at an ever-higher pitch somehow constitutes a “melody.” That new mix likely meant Kroger was aiming at a younger demographic, which was fine with old-guy me if it meant I could rescue MY music from the relentless marketplace.
But when I returned to the store today, the ambient soundtrack was a mix of ’60s and newer stuff. Uh-oh. Hearing the Who’s “I Can See for Miles” while selecting lunch meat rattled me, but I persevered. I’d just picked out our produce, the last stop before the checkout, and was arranging my coupons, when I heard the unmistakable opening of Thin Lizzy’s “The Boys Are Back in Town” — Aaargh! I jetted to London in ’78 so this tune could waft over me amid the mounds of cucumbers and turnips?!? I felt like vegetating . . . er levitating right outta there!
Count yer blessings, Richard. Our supermarkets alternate loud sales pitches for the daily specials with some of the most depressing music either side of the Pond–country, ballads, you name it. Sometimes I nearly run down the aisles to pick up my stuff and get the hell out before I cry. Even worse: (and this is no lie) once in an elevator I was subjected to a Muzak version of “Respect.”
You know that contemporary “singing style” you’re talking about? It’s the vocal version of the cruddy guitar solo that consists of “needle needle needle needle” as fast as possible, higher and higher up the neck and as many times as possible until the guy’s fingers trip, he loses the rhythm and has to do something else. UGH.
And don’t even get me started on the number of so-called “r&b” singers (and I don’t mean the REAL ones)who love to yodel off-pitch. The guys think they’re doing a Stevie Wonder vocal (he has a lot to answer for), and the gals think they’re going all Aretha on your ass. I can’t say this loud enough: THEY SUCK!!
Pardon my three-year-late crashing of the party. Over at Queencuttings is a 1992 retrospective by Doherty himself of his ’77 piece, on occasion of both bands’ loss of their fontmen. To his credit, he singled out the Madison Square Garden gig as Queen on their best form, while championing Lizzy’s Boston performance (which supposedly Brian May fumed about – as Queen held Boston close to their bosom as their American entrypoint.)
As for the Third Reich associations – remember even the 70s American mavericks like Spielberg studied Triumph of the Will for directing and stylistic know-how behind some of Hollywood’s most iconic blockbusters. It can’t be denied that some forms of expressions in crowd-focal point “leader” communion and synergy, or aesthetics and style of image-making, simply reached a zenith from all those brilliant minds assembled under such (unfortunate indeed) circumstances. Whether it’s conscious adoption or fortuitous coincidence, it can’t be denied that:
- Mercury’s own charisma and force of personality (unfortunately) parallels the cult of personality of a dictator, if one chooses to see malignancy into it (while ignoring all his homophilic cavorting and self-mocking buffoonery onstage – Hitler wouldn’t have been caught dead in those!)
- A rock band’s supreme hold through craft, teamwork and rapport with audience (We Will Rock You was conceived simply as audience participation; Radio Gaga video was a cheeky take-off from Metropolis’ theme of mechanized society akin to radio-vs-MTV consumption), is subject to but ought not be limited to Third Reich comparisons simply because they break the fourth wall better than the traditionally glacial distance between cooler-than-thou Rock Gods and their equally cool, perhaps shoe-gazing macho intelligentsia from a distance.
Queen never quite had their Altamont, after all.
Wow, somebody’s been digging into their Funk & Wagnall’s. Let me break it down:
Judging which band is better based on one tour is silly. Comparing the entire body of work of each band and the length and breadth of its influence is a better basis. Regardless of which band one prefers, the fact is that Queen comes out on top.
About those Third Reich associations:
Charisma and force of personality can sell a lot of records, but for a personality cult to morph into a global genocidal campaign, there has to be a perfect storm: an overriding mythology, sociopathic leadership, fear tactics, economic distress, mass hallucination, etc. Getting the crowd at Wembley to sing along or quiet down as directed is a far cry from controlling lives. Freddie also never urged anyone to action. His stage silliness and those particular songs were a small part of Queen’s repertoire, and partially derived from Weimar-era cabaret.
Hey, don’t be too sure about Adolf’s sartorial habits. I’ll bet in private with Eva he cavorted in Rocky Horror duds. J. Edgar Hoover secretly cross-dressed, and was similarly paranoid, dictatorial, racist, hateful, and criminal, while holding a key power position in the government for decades. The FBI didn’t use gas ovens, but under his iron grip, they systematically violated constitutional rights and eliminated their “enemies.”
No rock band ever has had “a supreme hold” over the masses, unless you want to count the Beatles saying “All you need is love” and John Lennon singing “Imagine.” Thin Lizzy had craft, teamwork, and audience rapport; Queen had all that plus endless imagination, creativity, and originality. That’s still a far cry from a lead singer paralleling the cult personality of a dictator…although I bet I’d be scared at a Judas Priest show.
I don’t think I’ve ever encountered a cooler-than-thou Rock God; the people on the top of my rock pile take requests, dash out into the audience, crowd surf, bring people up onstage, dance with them… I once saw Roger Daltrey jump off the stage into the audience to stop a fight between a big guy and a smaller one. I haven’t seen U2 live, and Bono doesn’t strike me as that kinda guy, but not everyone who puts themselves in that line of fire wants to be chummy with all and sundry. It’s a pretty fuckin’ scary job up there. I’d want a bit of distance between a mob who might just as easily chuck a firecracker in your eye as throw flowers.
What I really don’t understand are people who go to concerts and stand there trying to be cool instead of letting the music take over and move them. Rock critics especially. Unfortunately, a lot of new bands try so hard to be cool that their audience also tries hard to be cool, which is why going to those shows leaves me cold, ha ha. I think “macho” and “intelligentsia” are mutually exclusive, and equally annoying.
Queen would never have had an Altamont because 1) they’re smarter and a lot less toxified than the Stones; 2) their manager wasn’t a gangster; 3) they wouldn’t have hired Hell’s Angels for Security and paid them with beer; 4) they never pretended to be tough guys, and 4) their audience doesn’t carry weapons, whereas Keith Richard spent half his life carrying a knife in his boot. Altamont was no badge of anything but one dumb move after another.
End of today’s rant.
Interesting article, funny, I hear justin bieber and Beyonce on the radio all the time, does this make them the best artists around? Queen where an excellent band so too where Thin LIzzy. Sad that we must make battles between great bands. R.I.P Freddy and Phil, two incredible frontmen.
Harry started it.
(The debate goes back to the late ’70s.)
I didn’t mean it to be a battle of the bands; I just think that as time goes on, Queen’s songs will be remembered long after anyone remembers Thin Lizzy. The musicianship is the main thing, plus Mercury had a unique voice unrivaled in rock.
I respect your article Kris, and yes I realise this debate originally goes back to the 1977 tour. In many hearts (In my heart) Queen will be held in high regard and deservedly so. Thin Lizzy also have many many fans who still admire their sound, their guitar work especially. Lizzy never bored me, in fact the reason why i started playing guitar was Lizzy, because they excited me. This is the beauty of opinion
Kris, it’s quite obvious who’s biased here…Imho, Lizzys work will be just as remembered as Queens work. And the comparison between band members were just plain silly. I will never judge music baser on how it sounds compared to other music.
I’m biased on the basis of facts. (And I was being funny.) Some people like Lizzy, some people like Queen. I love intelligent, artistic, complex, and sometimes funny lyrics, and voices with range, power, clarity, rasp, dynamics, and sublety. From a whisper to a scream. That makes me a Mercury fan. And I’m old enough to have heard every major guitar player on the planet, in person, some of them several times, and I put Brian May up there in the top 10. Nobody has ever duplicated his gorgeous sound. I could go on about the rhythm section, but it’s obvious they do their job superbly. Roger Taylor has the added talent of singing up in the rafters where even Freddie didn’t go. The package was unique.
I’m pretty sure that if I randomly stopped people on the street and said both bands’ names, most people in America wouldn’t have heard of Thin Lizzy. Obviously they have more fans on the other side of the Pond. But one thing I know for sure: 10, 20, and maybe even more years from now, people will still be listening to Queen. The people who listen to Lizzy now will still be listening to Lizzy, but new Queen fans are being born every day. I was shocked as s**t when my teenage nephews knew Queen and actually listened to their music (not merely the “Bohemian Rhapsody” scene in Wayne & Garth).
For me, Thin Lizzy’s music wasn’t special, unique. The fact that they could replace guitar players without making much of a difference says something, too. They were a good band, but not spectacular.
PS–Did Harry put you up to this?
Iron Maiden, Def Leppard, Bon Jovi, Metallica, Guns n’ Roses, Smashing Pumpkins, U2, Kings Of Leon, Foo Fighters, The Darkness, The Strokes, and Sade have all covered Thin Lizzy songs or cited them as an influence, so they may exist in relative obscurity on the commercial radar but they were still an important band for many people.
It’s hard to pick up a guitar and not be influenced by Thin Lizzy. They defined a sound and an attitude just as much as Brian May did. I’m sure many of the artists listed above were also admirers of the music of Queen but the musical influence of Queen is less apparent. It can clearly be seen in The Darkness and in the grandiosity of Muse but as a guitarist Brian May had a sound rather than a style.
Much like Jimmy Page he was a great composer and arranger rather than an amazing lead guitarist. In that regard Gary Moore leaves him standing. In many ways Queen were an anomaly and a kind of guilty pleasure. Musically they came to inhabit the worlds of Abba and Andrew Lloyd Webber more than the realm of Black Sabbath or Led Zeppelin, known for showmanship more than music. They would not have been out of place in a las Vegas casino alongside Celine Dion or Elton John. They were never cool and sometimes just plain embarrassing. By 1977 they were already past their creative peak. When they were good they were great and Queen 2 and A Night At The Opera will always be among my favourite albums, but they have their weaknesses. Mostly anything written or sung by Roger Taylor. He really lets the side down.
Queen had four songwriters in the band, even Roger eventually turned out a classic, Radio Gaga, Thin Lizzy had only Phil Lynott to rely on. Even so he produced a legacy some of the most varied and versatile writing in the history of rock music. It’s just not the suff the band later became famous for. The first four Thin Lizzy albums contain a remarkably wide variety of musical styles and approaches, more than on any Queen album but nothing that really gave them a definitive voice. Queens musical variety was based on the amalgamation of four different musical styles rather than a single writer with a broad range.
In the end it comes down to a matter of personal preference. The overall quality and consistency of Queen’s recorded output may exceed that of Thin Lizzy but Phil Lynott’s tough but tender persona had far more to say to me than Freddie Mercury’s glam theatrics.
Having seen most of the greatest guitar players in action, as well as many Queen shows, I think Brian May’s work, especially when he played harmonies against himself as the sound was flanged around the venue (you know, like singing “Row Row Row Your Boat” as a round), is up there with David Gilmour’s. Sound and style are the same: e.g., Jeff Beck.
Queen was a kick-ass rock band, which many people forget or don’t know, because radio played the “pop” novelties, not flat-out rockers. In concert, they could blow your socks off. It’s just that Freddie was so attention-getting, he upstaged the music. However, his most outrageous flaunting didn’t start until a couple of tours after they debuted. When he cut his hair and made it obvious which team he played for, he went hog-wild: hot pants, cape, crown, etc. I wish he hadn’t, but I hope you don’t think he took that stuff seriously.
They in no way could’ve been a Vegas act. Sure, when they first appeared a lot of people more concerned with “cool” than music thought they were “embarrassing”─ Zandra Rhodes costumes! Long hair!— and didn’t want to take them seriously as a rock band. The punks were chopping off their hair, so everyone concerned with “cool” was doing the same. Brian May and I have the same “uncool” hair. And I think rating bands by their “cool” factor is very uncool.
Of the bands you named who were influenced by Thin Lizzy or covered their songs, Bon Jovi and Sade are highly commercial and could easily play Vegas, if they haven’t already. U2 have substantial songs that will last; I’ve seen them play only on TV, so I can’t comment on their shows, but I hope you agree that The Edge has a unique sound/style and can rock. Ditto Axl Rose; Guns n’ Roses was sensational. The others may have fervent followers, but in all of rock history, they’re maybe footnotes. I’m using a big measuring stick.
Thin Lizzy were an important band for many people, but even the fact that Queen had four songwriters and Thin Lizzy had only one kinda militates in Queen’s favor as a creative entity. And if you watched certain behind-the-scenes footage involving Freddie offstage, you’d see the tender persona; e.g., he was a nervous, insecure wreck about meeting opera singer Montserrat Caballé. All the ”Persian popinjay” flash was his layer of protection. Don’t forget, he was a queen in the unbelievably sexist rock world of the time, when even Elton John wasn’t totally out of the closet. Freddie also needed the armor of flamboyant personality because producing the sound he did is a very naked experience, more than plain old rock singing.
HI Folks,
Love the thread going on here. Kris and Harry, you lucky bastards for seeing such a line-up in 1977 (Queen & Lizzy) is something I’ll never forgive either of you for.
However, having researched the Lizzy story for many years and having had the chance to chat with many Lizzy insiders it’s a misconception that Phil Lynott was the only writer in Thin Lizzy. In many ways Phil could be likened to Jim Morrison of the Doors, in the way he came to the band with a skeletal idea and then the band brought the idea to fruition. It wasn’t the case all the time mind you but a lot more than is commonly known. (writing credits on album sleeves can be sometimes understated)
It could also be fair to suggest that Freddie’s multi-layered vocals and harmonic inclinations when it came to presenting the Queen sound didn’t come from him alone. Brian May’s contribution in this area is second to few.
Queen were probably one of the few bands I’ve come across that got away with being so blatantly commercial yet there was visible and audible depth to the material they crafted. Intelligent lyrics on commercial records for example, can be a tricky one to get away with. Queen were one of the few who did this on a global scale.
For me, Lizzy’s journey was a search for an alternative peak. Personally I prefer the lyrics of Lynott to Mercury any day of the week. It might be in the storytelling aspect and as an Irishman the appeal may lay therein.
Lizzy’s successful sound had been established on their 1975 ‘Fighting’ album but brought to the commercial playground by producer John Alcock the following year on Jailbreak. The issue of departing guitarists and those new ones coming in meant they had to adhere to what was a successful formula, if not in America than certainly throughout the rest of the world. America may be a huge market but there’s been a higher count of artists we’ve never heard about that are successful in the States (over here in Europe) than vice versa.
Phil might have used the ‘hard man’ aspect of his public persona to throw people off his scent but that didn’t stop him writing and singing classics such as ‘Still In Love With You’ and ‘Sarah’.
Who’s a better band and singer etc, maybe the better answers could be found in who’s your favourite and why?
alan
Then you REALLY won’t want to hear about the after-party at the Plaza Hotel– Scott Gorham on my left, Brian May on my right, YOW. The only bummer was that in the rush to the limos, my black velvet jacket went missing. Now that’s such a showoff sentence, I should slap my own face.
Maybe if I had Irish blood in me, I’d be more tuned into Lynott’s writing; maybe I should listen to Thin Lizzy again from a distance of 35 years. But I am SO over the tough-guy-soft-heart-addict-doomed-artist persona. Freddie was a different kind of front man, refreshingly self-mocking, brazen, a planet unto himself–and a voice that will never be equalled. Add to that the individual musicianship and Freddie’s unique writing, and for me, that’s the real deal. Queen never adhered to a formula, which always cracked me up; as soon as people thought they’d categorized them, the band stumped them again, and in every style, they were successful. “Better” is a difficult term to use, unless you measure each component by some objective standard. All I know is, in technical terms, Mercury had a voice of extraordinary range, power, timbre, accuracy, and delicacy, instantly identifiable, and boy, did he rock!
Alan: I read and enjoyed your book about Thin Lizzy, as well as taking an interest in the ongoing story of its gestation. I understand that Lynott was not the sole creative force in Lizzy, and that Brian Robertson in particular feels aggrieved about not receiving the songwriting credits he feels he is due, but the concepts and the lyrics were largely driven by Lynott, and then you run into the argument of how much credit should be given to the arrangement of a tune and the collaborative nature of writing and recording.
I liked what Brian Robertson brought to Motorhead where his creativity was allowed free reign to arrange and play as he liked. I also enjoyed his solo album, released earlier this year, but the songs on there, as with his work with Wild Horses show no real evidence that he could have been a major contributor within Lizzy. When Thin Lizzy did have another significant creative force in the band, Gary Moore, he found it necessary to leave to bring his career to fruition. Black Rose is an outstanding album but a large measure of that achievement is down to Gary’s dynamic infusion covering for Phil’s declining powers.
I might have dug myself into a hole with my comments about “sound and style.” What I meant was that it was not in his selection of notes that Brian May established his reputation as a unique guitarist, he was not a flashy technician, tasteful, considered and appropriate rather than explosive, or an explorer of the outer reaches of the jazz universe, it was his use of the technology available to him to create those harmonies, as well as his use of a coin as a pick, that gave him something no other guitarist had. His signature sound is unmistakeable.
I never saw Queen live. By the time I was old enough to do so they had ceased to interest me. Thin Lizzy I saw only once, on their farewell tour, and they were great. The recorded evidence shows that Queen were indeed a “kick-ass” rock band, but it was something they lost along the way. Hammersmith 1975 is wonderful, the stadium shows of a decade later have their moments but are significantly less so. For whatever the reason they lost their rock edge and Brian became Freddie’s sideman instead of an equal partner.
When I referred to Queen being embarrassing it was because of their musical direction rather than their image. There might be a difference between British and American sensibilities here. We had already had Marc Bolan and David Bowie establishing themselves, Roxy Music broke through about the same time as Queen, so glam was very much part of the mainstream. In this regard Freddie at that time, before he fully embraced his sexuality, did not stand out as being anything too remarkable. Queen were regarded as being “embarrassing” in the same way that heavy metal or prog rock were to the arbiters of taste and cool. They didn’t fit comfortably into any established category or appeal to a specific social group. I was not being derogatory about Queen as much as I was saying that, if you declared yourself a Queen fan you were not sticking a definitive social or tribal sticker on yourself. They were a rock band for people who only listend to chart music and didn’t know what “real” rock music was all about. To a certain degree Thin Lizzy fell into the same kind of trap because of their hit singles. The commercial success detracts from the artistic achievement of the greater body of work. For me Queen is the band that recorded Liar, Ogre Battle and Now I’m Here, not just the hits. Embarrassing, however, does apply to their decision to play Sun City. At that time of recession and mass unemplyment it semed like a hideously unforgiveably greedy and crass decision, as well as being racist by assosciation. I’m sure they did not consider it in those terms but it was a common perception at the time.
I was a bit harsh in suggesting that Queen were a Vegas act. What I was trying to say is that there is a reason that their music, in its most commercial aspect, was adapted for a stage musical in much the same way that the music of Abba and Elton John has also been. It lends itself to a grand and lavish presentation that can appeal to a mass audience in a way that most rock music can’t. As a writer and performer Freddie was drawing on a more European or Broadway tradition rather than mining the familiar blues seam. It made Queen accessible to a different audience and a different interpretation but it was not rock.
Neither did I mean to suggest that there really is such a thing as “cool,” except in the minds of certain parts of the media. I was only talking about a perception, or misconception, if you like. But also the fact that a great number of bands for the successive generation were quick to praise Bolan or Bowie or Roxy Music whereas Queen never earned that kind of credit. I make no claim about their relative merits, merely state the facts.
I could have added more bands that have been influenced in some regard by Thin Lizzy but I was only trying to establish a precedent rather than mount a full legal case. I would argue, that even by your very large measuring stick, Iron Maiden and Metallica deserve to be more than just footnotes. Generic bands they may be, and they may not have changed the face of music as we know it, very few have, but they have dominated their particular genre worldwide for over twent-five years and that ought to count for something. Of course Queen were the first band to make the rock experience a global phenomenon, and that should not be overlooked.
I do think that, for all U2s considerable achievements, The Edge suffers from the overwhelming presence of Bono in much the same way that Brian May was eclipsed by Freddie. They suffer a loss of sympathy because of it. As someone who tends to think the band is about the guitarist first and the singer second I know whose side I come down on.
Not everything Queen did worked. Experimentation is almost always laudable but Hot Space absolutely killed them for me. If I was slipping towards the tail of their bandwagon towards that point, that was the rut in the road that threw me into a ditch I never climbed out of. As an amalgam of four songwriters they worked vey well, but none of them ever manged a credible solo project.
When you are fourteen years old and your dreams are all of drinking fighting and falling in love, with the occasional moment of introspection, Phil Lynott says everything you want to hear. It was only in hindsight that I came to appreciate the greater subtleties in his writing that set him apart from contemporaries like David Coverdale or followers like Jon Bon Jovi. I think he remains the only great singer/songwriter to have fronted a rock band. It’s just a pity his talent was fatally compromised before it ever reached it’s full flowering. During his lifetime he was not someone who ever asked for sympathy or played up to the image of the artist as a tortured soul. He was vey self-aware, it was all there in the songs but it was never an explicit part of his persona. He played the romantic hero to perfection and for all that has been written about him since his death I don’t think any one has come close to capturing his real motivation.
Freddie was similarly an inspiration. He brazenly challenged you to accept him at the same time giving the impression of not really caring if you failed to meet him on his terms. It might have been a front but it was a convincing one. Maybe I didn’t look deeply enough, or I stopped listening to Queen too early, but I never found the “real” Freddie hiding in his songs in the same way I came to do with Phil Lynott. Freddie was all razzle-dazzle and smoke and mirrors, a great deal of style but little apparent substance. Maybe that’s more honest and less manipulative in a way.
Freddie was a great singer, probably the most versatile in the history of rock music. If he wasn’t the best at everything, he still did everything well. His subtlety and the flexibilty of his technique were never bettered. Only Ronnie James Dio had a similar technical facility. Phil Lynott had a unique voice and delivery. His technique might be lacking but no one ever sang a ballad with more emotion and sincerity.
Two great bands, both of whom failed me in some way. Thin Lizzy by never quite achieving the greatness they seemed destined for: Queen who achieved it but lost it.
Hi, Adrian:
This is very interesting—I think you may have me and Alan kind of mixed together in your response. I had no idea he’d written a book about Thin Lizzy—that explains his passionate support of the band. I was one of the original Queen horn-tooters this side of the Pond.
Since you said you never saw Queen live, I have to tell you Brian May sure is capable of pyrotechnics, which he unleashed in his concert solos; on the records, he’s restrained, within the context of the songs. Not sure how you define “flashy,” but I hope you don’t mean the high-speed “deedly deedly deedly” at the top of the neck, as described by Jeff Beck. Another reason for Brian’s unique sound is that he built his guitar out of wood from a fireplace mantel. Don’t know if he still uses the same one, but what a great way to start out!
Maybe part of the reason some Brits perceived Queen as embarrassing is that they showed up on the tail end of “glam rock,” when a lot of bands were “punk” or “new wave” (to use the annoying labels the industry slaps on people), whereas the U.S. wasn’t through with it yet─ evidenced by the fact that Mott the Hoople opened for Queen here. And yep, as soon as radio gets hold of “hit” records, it takes them out of the context of a band’s work, and listeners get only that impression of the band. Probably to most people in the U.S., Queen was a Top 40 band. Meanwhile, I wish they knew about “Seven Seas of Rhye,” “Stone Cold Crazy,” and the ballads that really showcase Freddie’s delicate touch.
I never knew about the Sun City debacle─ I’m horrified. Head in the clouds doesn’t begin to cover it; that’s denial and self-centeredness of mammoth proportions. How could Queen not know what was happening, or ignore the “Don’t Play Sun City” movement? What makes it worse (for me) is that Johnny Clegg was boycotted, and he was probably the only white artist heavily involved in the fight against apartheid, and his racially mixed band was harassed and attacked for playing to integrated audiences. That’s a shameful chapter in Queen history.
You hit the nail on the head when you said Queen’s music lends itself to a grand and lavish presentation; that’s Freddie’s persona in a nutshell. A lot of material on the albums is vaudeville/music hall, very visual─ easier to translate to the stage than “Tie Your Mother Down.” Making Broadway musicals out of a singer/songwriter/band’s material is a long-standing tradition (for better and for worse) that has mined repertoires from Duke Ellington to Green Day. It’s not a sin that some of Queen’s music ended up there, but I hate when that happens to rock music─ to me, it’s the equivalent of turning it into Muzak.
I don’t see Marc Bolan, Roxy Music, Iron Maiden, or Metallica as having a lasting effect on music, even after a 25-year on-and-off run, but David Bowie, yes. He may be the first rock artist to portray characters, not himself, obviously influenced a lot of artists, practically single-handedly put bisexuality on the mainstream music map, exhibited his paintings, kick-started the use of Berlin as a major recording center, made a spectacular stage debut in “The Elephant Man” and an amazing film debut in “The Man Who Fell to Earth” … And I wouldn’t say Queen were the first band to make the rock experience a global phenomenon; I’d have to say that was the Beatles—without the aid of the internet.
I know what you mean about Brian May and The Edge coming in 2nd to the lead singers. Bono and Freddie are the visual focus onstage, the voice of the band, and they do most of the interviews; no matter who started the band or how spectacular the playing is, guitarists seem like the sidekick (Keith Richards excepted). Good thing both singers and guitarists each have their own crowd.
Lynott’s background doomed him to be a mess; so did Freddie’s, in a totally different way. Freddie hid vulnerability even better than Lynott did; where you hear it is in the ballads, like “You Take My Breath Away.”
Your conclusion is interesting. I’d like to think of both bands as an unfinished work-in-progress. But it really pisses me off when the singer’s the one who throws in the towel.
Hi Kris
I thought I could cover all the points I was trying to make in one go. It might have been a mistake. The point I was trying to make about Brian was that in anything I have seen or heard from him I don’t think I have ever heard him play anything that was inappropriate or out of context. Of course he could be a showman, he wore batwing capes and sequinned clogs, but I never got the sense that he was showing off, which is what I really meant by flashy. Yes I was partly referring to “deedly deedly deedly” guitar players, but also to those guitarists, who, even in a band context, are sufficiently ego driven to put themselves centre stage and regard singers as an incovenience. I happen to like some of those players, Ritchie Blackmore above all, but the 1980′s, in particular, saw the rise of the guitarist as gunfighter syndrome where all else was sacrificed for the sake of speed. Notes-per-second became the yardstick by which peformance was judged. Brian’s showpiece during Brighton Rock was an exploration of the sonic possibilities of his guitar rig and the harmonic dialog he was able to create, rather than a frantic blur of notes. Musician first, guitarist second.
Glam Rock, never really a musical movement, was just about over in the UK by the end of 1974. There was a hiatus then until Punk began to break through, finally hitting the mainstream in 1977. In the rock world it was the rise of bands like Queen, Thin lizzy and Status Quo that plugged the gap. However, their commercial sensibilities didn’t always find favour with “serious” rock fans. This was at the time when the likes of Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd and Yes did not even release singles and Prog was not yet a dirty word.
I’m starting to realise what a complicated subject this is. Even the “Punk Movement” was an agglomeration of a number of very disparate elements. It was only really in the pages of the NME or the playlist of John Peel’s radio show, that such a sharp distinction could be drawn between the old and the new. Most music fans were able to embrace Punk without rejecting everything that had gone before. Queen suffered because they were sufficiently musical to be “elitist” and sufficiently artisitc to be “pretentious.” Of course, this in no way hindered their commercial success, it was just the media perception of them wich had altered.
Thin Lizzy were one of the few bands, along with AC/DC and Motorhead, who survived that period relatively unscathed. Alan Byrne tells the story of how Malcolm Mclaren took the newly formed Sex Pistols to a Thin Lizzy show to see what being in a rock band was all about, and that relationship was maintained throughout their mutual careers. At that time Lynott was still smart enough and hungry enough to position himself in line with the oncoming wave. Queen didn’t really need to care about such things by that time.
I recall some figures from the time, I think it was in 1979, regarding the relative earnings of the two bands. Phil Lynott was said during that year, Thin lizzy’s most successful, to have earned around £100,000. Queen during the same period made £700,000 pound each. I can’t verify the sources or the accuracy of those figures, but I think the comparison is still interesting.
Queen were part of a campaign by South Africa at that time to break the boycott on both the sporting and entertainment fronts. Their justification was that they would be playing to non-segregated audiences. I don’t thing the boycott by musicians was formalised politically in the way that the international sporting one was and it led to some odd situations. Johnny Clegg was one. The other was Paul Simon’s recording of Graceland where he used South African musicians, and people were very unsure as to how this should be received.
The point I was trying to make about Queen as a global rock phenomenon was that they were the first major band to take a full scale show behind the Iron Curtain and to South America. The Beatles had been seen on a satellite broadcast, Elton John had been to Moscow and Deep Purple had somehow found themselves in Jakarta, but I think Queen were the first band with a strategy to target thse areas of the world. In the same year they stole the show at Live Aid they also headlined the first Rock In Rio, which put South America on the map as a viable territory for bands to visit. I think the influence Iron Maiden have had is not so much because of their music but because of the prevalence of Iron Maiden T-shirts around the world, inspiring fans and bands in these countries. It’s a pledge of allegiance. I think there is such a thing as an international metal community and Iron Maiden is its flagship band. “We’re big in Japan,” used to be a bit of a joke but now it is perfectly possible for a band to be a major international act without beign played on American radio or selling any CDs in the USA.
Mark Bolan, I guess was a largely British phenomenon. He was the first glam artist to hit big and on this his reputation rests. He paved the way for Bowie and others even if he was significant for no other reason. He still has his adherents whereas the likes of Slade and Mott The Hoople, far superior in my opinion, have faded into relative obscurity. Roxy Music were a primary influence on many of the New Romantic and electronic bands who came to prominence in the 1980s and Brian Eno’s contribution as a producer continues to this day.
I was reminded yesterday that it is the twentieth anniversary of Freddie’s death. Such powerful memories I have of that time with the drama of his last days being played out on the television news. It’s just a pity that the musical focus is always on the eighties, with a casual nod to Bohemian Rhapsody. In a way Freddie has become like Elvis Presley. The iconic image of him, and the one the tribute acts always seem to go for, is of him wearing the yellow jacket, as he did at Wembley Stadium on Queen’s last tour, just as Elvis impersonators wear the white jumpsuit from the Vegas years. It says very little about the real musical accomplishments of either artist. My favourite Freddie vocal is Jealousy from the Jazz album, a subtle and sinuous delivery that any singer should aspire to. Somebody To Love is a joyous tour-de-force, Queen’s most perfect creation and representation of the band. I know Freddie didn’t write These Are The Days Of Our Lives from Innuendo (Roger Taylor again) but his delivery of the song is utterly authentic, poignant and compelling. It was as though he had rediscovered his real voice right at the very end, and was all the more moving because of it.
I suppose most musical careers, just like political ones, are destined to end in failure. There will always be the difficult third album, musical differences, the terminal departure of a key member. Most fans like most musicians grow up, get over it and get on with life. For most of us there is a finite period when music is the most important thing in our lives, and we look to the voices of others to express all the things we feel and want to say. Maybe it’s childish to expect too much of our heroes.